International Voluntary Services in Vietnam: War and the Birth of Activism, 1958–1967
https://www.academia.edu/113032653/International_Voluntary_Services_in_Vietnam_War_and_the_Birth_of_Activism_1958_1967?email_work_card=title
https://www.academia.edu/113032653/International_Voluntary_Services_in_Vietnam_War_and_the_Birth_of_Activism_1958_1967?email_work_card=title
Asia | Strong
tailwind, no rudder
Few countries are better placed
than Vietnam to get rich
Yet political paralysis could slow it down
Jan 23rd 2024 | HANOI
Abrief but revealing panic struck Vietnam this month.
On January 12th the country’s 79-year-old leader, Nguyen Phu Trong, failed to
meet the visiting president of Indonesia. Mr Trong’s name was removed from the
official schedule without explanation. Rumours spread that he was dead. For
three days noodle shops raged with speculation about who his successor might
be. Would it be someone corrupt? Or more pro-China? The ruling Communist Party,
a secretive bunch, revealed nothing.
Then, on January 15th, official media showed a frail Mr
Trong attending a humdrum session of the legislature in Hanoi, as if to holler
“I’m not dead!” like a Monty Python plague victim. The public may never know
whether it was sickness or something else that made the Communist Party chief
disappear from view. But it was unsurprising that his absence should scupper a
meeting with a global leader. Everyone wants to be Vietnam’s friend these days.
This is partly for geopolitical reasons. Vietnam, a country
of 100m, has shrewdly positioned itself halfway between China and America,
prompting both superpowers to woo it. In 2023 Vietnam was the only country
honoured with state visits from both Joe Biden and Xi Jinping. In September it
upgraded its relationship with America to a “comprehensive strategic
partnership”, putting it on the same level as Russia and China.
Although Vietnam’s ruling party has much in common with
China’s, ordinary Vietnamese are deeply suspicious of their giant, bullying
neighbour. China unlawfully claims parts of the South China Sea that belong to
Vietnam; its ships harass Vietnamese fishermen. An Asian Barometer poll found
that only 25% of Vietnamese have a positive view of China, whereas 85% have a
positive view of America. The Biden administration, eager to deter Chinese
expansion, has supplied Vietnam with coastguard ships to protect its waters.
America would love to offer more help, but Vietnam rules out a formal alliance.
The country’s growing geopolitical relevance is based on its
strong economic performance, as well as geography. When Vietnam started opening
up in the mid-1980s, annual income per head was half that of Kenya. On the back
of pragmatic and increasingly pro-business policies, it has since grown sixfold
to $3,700. Today, the government’s ambition to turn Vietnam into a rich country
by 2045 is plausible. Economically, Vietnam has probably never faced a more
benign global environment.
Geopolitics is driving investment towards it, as America
seeks to decouple from China and private firms of all nationalities sense which
way the wind is blowing. Most manufacturers cannot simply pull out of China.
But to mitigate the cost of current and future trade barriers, they can hedge
their bets by making things elsewhere as well (a strategy known as “China +
1”). Many also hope to reduce their exposure to arbitrary policies in
China—memories of its painful zero-covid lockdowns remain fresh. “The pandemic…showed
us we were too concentrated in China,” notes a foreign manufacturer in Ho Chi
Minh city.
Firms that export to the West are shifting production to
Vietnam. Brands such as Samsung and Apple are making gadgets there. Suppliers,
including Chinese ones, are clustering around them. “Our customers insisted we
move to Vietnam [for geopolitical reasons],” says the boss of an electronics
firm. “But we were already thinking about it, since labour costs in China were
rising and young Chinese no longer want to work in factories.” In the first
three quarters of 2023 inflows of foreign direct investment to Vietnam as a
share of gdp were twice as large as in Indonesia, the Philippines or
Thailand, reckons clsa, a bank (see chart).
If the world keeps fragmenting into rival trading blocs, the
global economy could be seriously damaged, reckons the imf. And given
the high share of Chinese components in many products labelled “Made in
Vietnam”, it is unclear how much America is really reducing its dependence on
China by moving supply chains there. But so far the shift has been good for
Vietnam.
gdp growth has been bumpy: it slumped during the
pandemic, bounced back to 8% in 2022, fell to 4.7% in 2023 amid a credit
crisis, and is expected to recover to 5.8% this year. Still, Vietnam is well
placed to keep attracting investment, argues Tony Nafte of clsa. It is
more open to commerce than its South-East Asian peers. Trade in 2022 was
equivalent to a whopping 186% of its gdp, versus 45% in Indonesia, 72% in
the Philippines and 134% in Thailand.
Vietnam’s plentiful, young manufacturing workers are
diligent, reasonably well educated and half as expensive as those in Chinese
coastal areas. Vietnam, unlike Indonesia and the Philippines at times, has no
problem with Islamist terrorism, notes a factory boss. It offers fat incentives
to foreign investors, both explicit (tax breaks, cheap land) and de facto
(high-tech workers were among the first to get covid vaccines). And although it
is a one-party state like China, it is friendlier. Expatriates in Beijing
complain of a climate of fear; those in Vietnam seem relaxed.
Yet the country has a big political problem: its government
is paralysed by indecision. Mr Trong must step down by 2026. As the panic over
his rumoured demise reminded everyone, his succession is unclear. Not knowing
who they will have to please in a couple of years, officials are reluctant to
make major decisions.
A “blazing furnace” crackdown on corruption, lit by Mr
Trong, has made them even jumpier. Hundreds have been arrested, and last year
the president (who is number three in the hierarchy) was forced to resign.
Lesser officials have been loth to approve big projects in case they turn out
to be tainted. In the coming reshuffle, any whiff of scandal could be used to
wreck their careers, or worse. So the safest thing, many have concluded, is to
do nothing.
Consider energy. Vietnam has done a fine job of connecting
homes to the grid (nearly 100% of rural ones have electricity, up from 14% in
1993). But as industry grows, so does demand for power. The supply can be
unreliable: power cuts last year were “terrible”, says a manufacturing boss.
And foreign investors increasingly want to tell customers
and shareholders that they use clean energy. Here, Vietnam is struggling. It
depends heavily on coal, which makes the air in Hanoi worse than Shanghai’s. A
push to install more solar panels has helped a bit, but a promise to hit
net-zero carbon emissions by 2050 looks fanciful unless the country harvests
the wind off its blustery, 3,000km-long coast.
That may happen, but it is taking ages. The process for
granting approvals to survey the seabed for suitable spots is “extremely slow”,
complains a wind-power executive, adding that officials are “cautious on making
any decisions now”. Little of the legal framework for erecting turbines or
selling power to the grid is clear, he sighs. The relevant ministries barely
talk to each other, and everything must go through the state-owned power
supplier, evn, which is as nimble as Jabba the Hutt. Environmentalists gripe
that vested interests (ie, bigwigs who have invested in coal) are blocking the
country’s energy transition. Some of those environmentalists have been jailed,
typically for “tax fraud”.
Some in the ruling party, such as the prime minister, Pham
Minh Chinh, understand how gravely Vietnam is imperilled by global warming. The
delta of the Mekong river, which covers much of south-western Vietnam, is
sinking even as sea levels rise, meaning the sea could ultimately swallow it.
Pragmatic officials argue that if Vietnam wants to be an
industrial powerhouse it should bet on the clean technologies of the future,
not the dirty ones that much of the world is trying to scrap. Hence the
government’s implicit backing of VinFast, the ambitious but loss-making
electric-vehicle arm of its biggest private conglomerate. But
faster reform is needed if Vietnam is to meet its climate pledges or prepare
for a warmer world.
Vietnam is heavily dependent on trade, and the global
business environment is changing fast, so policymakers need to keep up.
Sometimes, they do not. Vietnam’s policy of giving tax breaks to foreign
investors, for example, has become less of an inducement since the oecd, a
club of rich countries, agreed to apply a global minimum corporate-tax rate of
15%. Multinationals that pay little or nothing in Vietnam may be hit with
higher charges elsewhere, warns the manager of a foreign manufacturer in Ho Chi
Minh city.
Rather than offer tax breaks the government should simplify
the rules, he says. “The opportunities are enormous but red tape is the biggest
problem,” agrees Bruno Jaspaert, the boss of Deep C, an industrial zone in the
city of Haiphong. Rules are often contradictory; some projects need the
approval of a dozen ministries. More infrastructure would help. Public
transport is still poor, so traffic in big cities is slow.
Despite the crackdown, corruption still hurts business. One
foreign entrepreneur grumbles about having to play by two sets of rules: the
formal ones, such as paying taxes and ensuring his warehouse doesn’t catch
fire, and the informal ones, such as paying off local officials so they don’t
hogtie him with inspections.
Vietnam has risen from dire poverty to modest prosperity in
a single generation. But it needs to keep on reforming. Geopolitical winds
can change. Rivals can grow more competitive. Vietnam is greying fast: its
working-age population will shrink after 2038, by one estimate. And its
citizens may tire of their ruling party if living standards do not keep rising
rapidly. Regimes, like leaders, do not last forever.
https://www.economist.com/asia/2024/01/23/few-countries-are-better-placed-than-vietnam-to-get-rich
Antiwar Research and Education
April 10, 2024
Watch on youtube by clicking here https://youtu.be/LrS2z3jFT1k
When US intervention in Indochina became controversial, the media, established academics , Congress and government officials had a shared narrative of supporting democracy against agression from Hanoi, an instrument of Communist masters in Moscow and Beijing.
As opposition grew among students, peace organizations and the religious community, a different narrative emerged about how and why the war was being fought. Teach-ins opened the door and an intellectual infrastructure followed based on contrarian scholars and political polemics.
A serious rebuttal to conventional wisdom was featured in the New York Review of Books and a new specialized publication Viet Report (1964-1968) founded by the late Carol Brightman and John McDermott. Dissidents within the academic community created the Committee of Concerned Asia Scholars (1968-1979).Young independent researchers published persuasive studies under the auspicies of the Indochina Resource Center (1971-1976) in Washington that had a two way link with increasingly sympathetic Representatives, Senators and their staff.
The Quaker led American Friends Service Committee added a research and education component to its nationwide peace activism and humanitarian assistance in-country, National Action Research into the Military Industrial Complex (NARMIC). (1969-1980s)
In this webinar we will learn from former members of these projects about how they came about, their personal experience, the contribution to the antiwar movement and the impact on public opinion and Congressional debate
Linda Yarr, moderator, Committee of Concerned Asia Scholars, George Washington University
Beverley Gologorsky, editor of Viet Report, novelist, essayist
Martha Winnacker, Committee of Concerned Asian Scholars, University of California
David Marr Indochina Resource Center, Australian National University
Bill Goodfellow, Indochina Resource Center, Center for International Policy
Le Anh Tu Packard, National Action Research into the Military Industrial Complex, Moody’s Analytics
Linda J Yarr is Research Professor of International Affairs and Director of Partnerships for International Strategies in Asia (PISA) at George Washington University, as well as a Research Affiliate of the Center for Asian Studies at the University of Colorado, Boulder. She also serves as a member of the Board of Directors of the journal Critical Asian Studies, successor to the Bulletin of Concerned Asian Scholars published by The Committee of Concerned Asian Scholars. She has written articles, book chapters and reviews on Vietnam and Southeast Asia. As a student in France during the war in Vietnam, she was a member of the Paris American Committee to Stop the War. She holds a master’s degree from Cornell University, an advanced degree in international relations from Sciences Po in Paris, and a B.A. from D’Youville College (now University).
Beverly Golodorsky was managing editor and editor of Viet Report and Leviathan in collaboration with Carol Brightman. She is the author of four acclaimed novels: “The Things We Do To Make It Home”, "Stop Here", "Everybody Has a Story" and "Can You See the Wind". Her novel “The Angle Of Falling Light,” will be published 2025. Recent essays include “1960s Turmoil,” in "Patriots: The Vietnam War Remembered from all Sides", editor, Christian G. Appy; “In the Whirlwind” in the anthology "The Friend Who Got Away: Twenty Women’s True-Life Tales of Friendships that Blew Up, Burned Out, or Faded Away", editors, Jenny Offil & Elissa Schappell; and “In The Shadow of War,” published in TomDispatch, Huffington Post, Salon, The Nation, et al.. Gologorsky’s contribution to feminism noted in “Feminists Who Changed America” Ed. Barbara Love. Op-Ed Columns in Newsweek, Los Angeles Times. Hackney Literary Award for short story “Could Be Siberia”; Skyline Magazine publication of short story, “Not Calcutta”; Four cable television scripts on children and health for American Baby Magazine Show. Reviewed Books for: New York Times Book Review, Women’s Review of Books, The Nation Magazine
Martha Winnacker joined the Committee of Concerned Asian Scholars (CCAS) as a first-year graduate student in the spring of 1968, just weeks after CCAS was formed. She was active in the Berkeley chapter until 1970, when she and her husband Paul left Berkeley to spend a year-and-a-half at the East Asian Seminar at the Free University of Berlin, where radical students and junior faculty had secured a controlling vote in the selection of new faculty, appearing to model the transformation we hoped to see in American academic institutions. The Winnackers then moved on to Tokyo, where they were active in the CCAS chapter and Martha volunteered as an English-language editor at Ampo, an international journal published in English by Japanese in solidarity with peace movements throughout Asia. Returning to the United States in the final weeks of the Vietnam War in 1975, she reconnected with CCAS in Berkeley and began volunteering at the Indochina Resource Center, eventually becoming part of its postwar staff.
She did not return to graduate school but remained connected to CCAS and its journal, the Bulletin of Concerned Asian Scholars, still publishing as Critical Asian Studies. She serves on the board of directors for the journal. In her professional life, Martha played a facilitating rather than an expert role, serving as an editor of the Southeast Asia Chronicle from 1977 to 1984, editor of the California Historical Society’s California History journal from 1985-1988, and as a grants administrator for the University of California’s Pacific Rim Research Program from 1989-1996. New opportunities within UC’s central administration led her to work on copyright, research publication policy, and digital communications policy.
In 2000, she entered law school, intending to specialize in intellectual property but finding other interests. After graduating and passing the California Bar exam in 2003, she clerked on the Alaska Court of Appeals in 2003-2004 and worked as an attorney for public defender legal aid agencies from 2005 through 2007. She returned to UC as executive director for the UC-wide Academic Senate from 2008 to 2014. Since her retirement in 2014, she has volunteered as an attorney with groups working on reform of the criminal justice and child welfare systems in California and as a Master Gardener.
David Marr studied at Dartmouth College (BA), before joining the US Marine Corps as an intelligence officer. Marr learned Vietnamese in the US, then was assigned to Vietnam in 1962.[3] He married there in April 1963, and was reassigned to marine Intelligence in Hawaii a month later. After leaving the Marines in 1964 he sought to understand the roots of Vietnamese patriotism as a graduate student at UC Berkeley (PhD 1968). He taught at University of California, Berkeley and as assistant professor at Cornell University, 1969–72, while becoming increasingly engaged in documenting the case for withdrawing from Viet Nam, notably as co-director of the Indochina Resource Center (Washington and Berkeley), 1971-5. In 1975 he moved to Australia with his family, in research positions as Fellow, Senior Fellow and finally Professor at the Research School of Pacific (and Asian) Studies, Australian National University in Canberra. He has also been editor of Vietnam Today. He is currently Emeritus Professor and Visiting Fellow, School of Culture, History & Language at the College of Asia and the Pacific, Australian National University. (copied from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_G._Marr)
Bill Goodfellow is the director of the Afghanistan Peace Campaign. He is a veteran peace activist and non-profit organization executive. He was one of the founders of the Center for International Policy (CIP) in 1975 and was the executive director from 1985 to 2017. He oversaw all of CIP’s programs and fundraising and was the organization’s CEO.
He was the coordinator of the Afghanistan Study Group, which backed a negotiated political settlement in Afghanistan. He has testified before congressional committees and published op-ed articles in most major U.S. newspapers.
In the 1980s, Goodfellow promoted negotiations to end the civil wars in Nicaragua and El Salvador. He worked closely with Costa Rican President Oscar Arias and championed the Central American peace process in the United States. He attended all the Central American summit meetings and was in Guatemala City for the signing of the Esquipulas Peace Accord in August 1987.
From 1973 to 1975, Goodfellow was an associate at the Indochina Resource Center, an NGO in Washington staffed by academics and activists who produced scholarly research for the anti-Vietnam War movement. He spent the last six months of the war in Indochina and was evacuated from both Cambodia and Vietnam in the spring of 1975.
After the war ended, Tu went on to study economics at Bryn Mawr College and Columbia University. She worked for Wharton Econometrics, Chase Econometrics, and the WEFA Group. In the early 1990s Tu provided consulting services to the United Nations, the World Bank, the Ford Foundation and academic institutions on capacity building projects and multi-country studies to study the effects of globalization. In 2005 she joined Economy.com (Moody’s Analytics) where she played a lead role in improving the baseline and scenario forecasting process, developed proprietary measures of sovereign risk and fiscal space, edited the flagship Precis Macro publication, and wrote articles on international economic issues. She retired from Moody’s Analytics in 2017 and participates in community efforts to support local biodiversity by providing free native seeds and native plants to residents.
Resources
"Carol Brightman, 80, Dies; Profiled a Notable Writer and a Notable Band" https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/15/books/carol-brightman-dead.html
The University at war (Part 1 of 3) Carol Brightman (editor of Viet Report magazine), Mike Klare (associate editor of Viet Report magazine), Mike Locker (lecturer), and Paul Rockwell discuss the role of American Universities in the Vietnam War. Universities are involved with actual military operations in Vietnam by applying social sciences and technological research which were used for propaganda and technologies. https://archive.org/details/pra-BB1739A
The University at war (Part 2 of 3) https://www.pacificaradioarchives.org/recording/bb1739b
The University at war (Part 3 of 3) https://www.pacificaradioarchives.org/node/23571
On behalf of NARMIC, Arthur Kanegis testified at the The Winter Soldier hearing with doctor Burt Pfeiffer
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hn3csn2o188q3xx/Arthur%27s%20Winter%20Soldier%20testimony.rtf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yzcrfinfzg3j1jy/Arthur%27s%20Winter%20Soldier%20Part%202.rtf?dl=0
or
http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter_Soldier/WS_11_Weapons.html
Pete Seeger, Bring Them Home click here https://youtu.be/LYfUlGORKkw
***************************
Chat
Ken Brociner Since neither of these two organizations have yet been mentioned (as of 7:00 EST), I'd like to give a shout -out to the Indochina Peace Campaign and the United Campaign to Stop Funding the War (if I got the name right).
paul shannon to Hosts and panelists : yes AFSC is putting out excellent research on weapons makers making the arms being used to destroy Gaza. A fantastic source of information
Michael Klare : The Forum on the Arms Trade provides detailed info on US arms trade
John McAuliff : Indochina Peace Campaign and the United Campaign to Stop Funding the War will be the topic of another webinar
Jay Wilber : Strong ties with the German student and antiwar movement... SDS with "SDS..."
Earl Martin to Hosts and panelists : Thanks to all of you. So many good memories, good learnings. That era is still alive in our spirits asd we are active with local and national efforts weekly on the war in Gaza.
Tom Grunfeld to Hosts and panelists : 1975-1996 the Third Indochina War to punish VN for winning the war.
From Jay Wilber : Still a POW-MIA flag at City Hall in Cambridge! And a chair in the entry! No politician dares to be the first to propose finally taking it away, evidently!
Tom Grunfeld to Hosts and panelists : The flags are in every post office in my area.
Lady Borton : We tend to forget that Việt Nam first had peace in 1990. Between 1975 and 1989, Việt Nam had war on two fronts -- Cambodia and China, with the US involvement in politically backing the Khmer Rouge and the Chinese.
Jay Wilber : Hugh Thompson in the house.
Earl Martin : Warm appreciation to all of you for your powerful, heartfelt work for peace in Vietnam over the years!
paul shannon : In Quang Mai the Bartons and Quinn-Judges provided invaluable information — roger and jackie chagnon
Earl Martin : In Quang Ngai we felt clearly that the Saigon forces were trying to expand territory after the peace accords. We documented that on the ground.
Jay Wilber : We have very ruthless ruling elites.
Alex Knopp : Thank you for joining everyone!
Nguyet Nguyen : Thank you!
Nguyet Nguyen : Take care everyone.
Susan Cushman to Hosts and panelists : Thank you for the informative presentation.
***********************
Q & A
* Ken Brociner What re-considerations, if any, have you arrived at - in regard to the North Vietnamese - since the end of the war?
* Jay Wilber Is there a NARMIC equivalent today? If not, anyone considering re-establishing something similar?
* Jay Wilber I hope something will be said about Ngo Vinh Long (perhaps he's attending?) and his publication, and how he was later perilously attacked at an appearance at Harvard.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1981/5/8/investigate-the-attack-pbto-the-editors/
https://www.bangordailynews.com/2022/10/25/bangor/umaine-ngo-vinh-long-obit-xoasq1i29i/
[Long passed away October 12, 2022.]
Just realized that.
"Remembering Ngô Vĩnh Long, Renowned Scholar of Vietnam and Antiwar Activist" by An Thùy Nguyễn & Douglas Allen https://web.archive.org/web/20230217064951/https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14672715.2023.2167220
*Alex Knopp One of the useful resource formats first developed by NARMIC in 1969 or 1970 was the then (!) high-tech “slideshow,” which enabled both the delivery of much information and a live-person delivery using a predrafted script. This combined hard informatin with live discussion— sort of a power point for the 1970’s! Later in the Indochine Peace Campaign we devleoped the same type of slideshow about the war that was drafted originally by Tom Hayden. I recall giving the IPS show to dozens of audiences for IPC in Philadelphia where I worked with John McAuliff, Jack Malinowski and many others.
My mother Honey Knopp helped start NARMIC with Stewart Meacham and Anne Flitcraft at AFSC and she was always very proud of its contributions.
* Jay Wilber The role of the (disenchanted) establishment and antiwar journalism in the establishment media (Cronkite, etc...) in moving toward an end to the war
* An Nguyen Thank you all for your wonderful talks and, of course, for your contribution to ending the war in Vietnam. I have two questions for Tu Packard. Bill Goodfellow, and David Marr regarding your work and research for NARMIC and IRC, respectively.
1. You described some of the sources that you consulted in writing your reports, which was very helpful. My question is: Did you - and to what extent - rely on sources provided by Vietnamese people or groups in South Vietnam (besides Thời Báo Gà)? Who were some of these people and/or groups?
2. Over the past 2 decades, there has been a new wave of Vietnam-centric revisionist histories, represented by works such as “Hanoi’s War,” that blames most of the wartime violence and aggression, as well as the failure of the Paris Peace Agreements, on Hanoi. In other words, it was Hanoi, rather than Saigon and the U.S., that first violated the Peace Agreements and was determined to win by force. Based on the research you did, especially on the 1973-1975 period, do you think there is veracity to those claims?
* David Hawk For Martha, What did the inclusion of “critical theory” bring to the analysis of imperialism in Asia?
* Jay Wilber Campaigning here in Cambridge against Elbit, an Israeli weapons company.
* John Kim Did any of you study the costs of US war in Indochina? Total costs--both here and abroad.
* Alex Knopp Peggy Duff had been the main staff person for the “Tribune” movement of the left-wing section of the British Labour Party in the 1950’s and 60’s, supporting first the campaign for Nucear Disarmament and the Alderson Marches and later the anti-Vietnam War movdement that pressured Harold Wilson to keep British troops out of the Vietnam War. The name of this movement’s publication was “The Tribune.” Her most prominent insurgent left member of Parliament was Tony Benn.
* Doug Allen During the 60s, 70s, etc., didn’t msny in CCAS and others present pay some attention and express solidarity with anti-imperialist and liberation movements in South Africa, Central and South America, and elsewhere?
* Doug Allen It seemed that Vietnamese sources were not emphasized sufficiently.
* Jay Wilber What are participants' views on the historiography attributing military escalation by Vietnam liberation forces to the domination of Le Duan?
20:26:51
From Shawn Driscoll to
Hosts and panelists : Beyond Vietnam speech
20:26:59
From paul edward gingras : 1967
20:27:30
From Terry Murray to
Hosts and panelists : Re MLK adoption of anti-war stance was 1967. His
famous speech at NYC’s Riverside church was exactly a year before he was
murdered.
20:28:05
From Doug Rawlings : exactly one year
later to the day he was assasinated
20:28:06
From John McAuliff to
Hosts and panelists : Paul, you should bring in David
20:28:28
From James M Branum : I wanted to say
thank you, thank you, to all who had a role in the FTA! show and later the Sir,
No Sir! documentary. These two films played a huge, huge role in inspiring the
short-lived GI coffee house movement of the more recent Iraq and Afghanistan
wars. The service members and veterans at Fort Hood, Fort Lewis, Fort Drum and
Norfolk Naval station, as well as their civilian supporters, took to heart the
idea that the war itself could be ended if enough service members pushed back.
My only criticism of these films is that they didn't tell us
enough about the behind-the-scenes issues that were necessary to keep the
movement afloat. Eventually all of the more recent coffee houses closed down,
mostly due to the lack of support, particularly from outside of the military
communities.
20:29:24
From Doug Bradley : To underscore
Holly’s point, Jonathan Eig’s new biography of King points out how King lost
lots of support for protesting the war in Vietnam and the FBI amped up their
campaign against him because he was anti-war.
20:29:33
From Doug Rawlings : I was just in
Vietnam -- "we forgive but we don't forget"
20:30:04
From Shawn Driscoll to
Hosts and panelists : James…Much support came from organizations such as
USSF
20:32:08
From Kate Harris : I was able to borrow
a DVD copy of FTA from my library (there are two copies available here in the
statewide Maine library system)
20:32:45
From Joe Volk to
Hosts and panelists : I recommend David Cortright’s book, Soldiers in
Revolt: GI Resistance During the Vietnam War, for details on the coffee house
movement and the GI anti-war movement. Get the 2005 edition.
20:32:57
From Jay Wilber : Hi Jane! Whatever
happened to Marty Kenner? (who helped with, among other things, the Panthers
Constitutional Convention in D.C....)
20:33:28
From Steve Talbot to
Hosts and panelists : Hi, to Jane Fonda and Paul Lauter in particular.
The FTA! Show was a very important, effective part of the anti-Vietnam war
movement. It certainly encouraged
development of Vietnam Veterans Against the War and that famous demonstration
at the Capitol in Washington, DC in April 1971, which I was fortunate to film.
20:33:43
From ARNY Stieber to
Hosts and panelists : Hopefully you’ll mention the book “The Spitting
Image” by Jerry Lembcke.
20:35:02
From John McAuliff : Sandra
Schulberg Indie Collect
https://mailchi.mp/indiecollect/please-support-indiecollect-this-giving-tuesday?e=8097ef30bb
20:35:05
From Doug Bradley : Jerry Lembecke’s The
Spitting Image documents the reality that this never happened!
20:35:07
From Shawn Driscoll : James…Much support
came from organizations such as USSF =)
20:35:48
From Shawn Driscoll : Excellent work,
John. Thank you
20:36:40
From James M Branum : Shawn, I think it
did make the difference. I still think there is a need for ongoing physical
presence in military communities by antiwar folks, but to make it work there
does need to be a broader network of support. I think that made the difference
in the Vietnam era.
20:36:43
From Michael Turek : Is it possible to
get Sir! No Sir! on PBS?
20:38:17
From Shawn Driscoll : James..Completely
agree. Support and education for all.
20:38:58
From Mike Burton : Thank you for your insights. As you know, for many
the war hasn't ended for many reasons. I was stationed in Thailand, but all of
our missions were flown against Laos. The war there still goes on, with 1000s
still being killed or injured from the tons of bombs that remain from this
"Secret War". I chair Legacies of War a group that advocates for the
removal of unexploded ordinances the US left ; the US was there in clear
voilotion of the Genva Accords of 1962. Can you extend your efforts to tell the
truth about US involvement in the war in Indochina and join us in our advocacy?
20:39:01
From Jay Wilber : Lembecke's work great
and important. Those who did things like that were probably drunks in bars who
weren't even against the war at all to begin with.
20:39:42
From Steve Talbot to
Hosts and panelists : David Zeiger is absolutely correct about the
"spitting myth". There have been endless efforts to disparage,
stereotype, and marginalize the anti-Vietnam war movement. It's one reason that
I made the film "The Movement and the "Madman" with Robert
Levering for the PBS series American Experience this year. We show what the
mass movement was really like in 1969 and what it accomplished in preventing a
major Nixon-Kissinger escalation of the war.
20:39:54
From Jaime Veve : in 2018 had the honor
to visit Vietnam. was incredibly humbling to be thanked for refusing the
military draft.
20:41:10
From Doug Bradley : The past is never
dead. It’s not even past. - Faulkner
20:41:55
From stefen STEFEN : Please acknowledge
and promote the film "The Boys Who Said NO !" to the draft
20:42:00
From Doug Rawlings : I was just n Hue
this past August at a conference on the Heritage of Vietnam. We used Ron Carver's book on the GI
Resistance to the war, which had just been translated into Vietnamese. Most of the conference attendees were
Vietnamese, who knew almost nothing about the GI resistance.
20:42:03
From Sandy Polishuk : I went to my first
VW teach in in 1965 and was active all along from then, which is why I was
shocked by learning what really happened and why Nixon pulled us out from Sir!
No Sir! Amazing history, so glad the story is finally available for all of us,
even long-time activists to learn the truth
20:42:06
From Jaime Veve : while fighting the
draft worked with the American Serviceman's Union. which viewed the importance
of workers being used to fight imperial wars.
20:42:33
From stefen STEFEN : Resisters of the
60's. Needs to be on PBS also.
20:43:07
From Shawn Driscoll : Amazing film, as
is F.T.A. Both are a big part of my in-process dissertation work. Thank you
20:43:50
From Mike Burton : I returned to the US
in 1969 through Travis AFB and we were told there were protestors there and so
we were taxied around to a secluded spot and put on buses. I never saw nor
experienced any spitting or harassment. I was in rehab at Wright-Patterson AFB
and we were not allowed to leave the base in uniform. I only felt uncomfortable
when I went to a concert at a near- by college and was obviously noticed because
of my short hair ; but the time I was offered a drag on some weed I was only
told "I’m sorry for you man."
20:44:02
From paul edward gingras to
Hosts and panelists : I have an original 16mm film from a Baltimore TV
station that filmed the May 17, 1968
Catonsville Nine. Tom Lewis Dan and Phil
Berrigan I am working with Jerry Lembcke. Please contact me Paul Edward Gingras
Executive Producer The Subversive Art of Artist Activist Tom Lewis Thanks gingras.paul@gmail.com
774-696-8909 978-350-6924 tomlewisartistactivist.org
20:45:08
From Terry Murray to
Hosts and panelists : Movement and the Madman was excellent. I finally
saw it here in Canada, but I don’t remember what streaming service. We don’t
always get what’s available on U.S. streaming services - eg, films on Netflix
in the U.S. isn’t necessarily available on Netflix in Canada.
20:45:18
From Mike Burton to
Hosts and panelists : Madman and
the Movement should be required viewing for all Americans, Thank you for making
it!
20:45:19
From ARNY Stieber to
Hosts and panelists : Viet Nam is historically two words. It was changed to one word by the NYT. Back then the only way to get news back to
the U.S. was by cable. Cable charged per
word.
20:45:38
From Doug Bradley : Steve’s film is
terrific. Don’t forget The War At Home by Glenn Silber and Barry Brown about
the anti-war movement in Madison, WI.
20:46:26
From James M Branum : Speaking of music
from the FTA show, Barbara Dane's FTA album is on Spotify. Very moving and
still very relevant.
20:46:53
From Doug Rawlings : I got out of the
army and Nam in August of 1970 at Ft. Lewis.
Then my wife and I hitchhiked across the country from LA to Cleveland,
Ohio. We were on the road for three weeks.
Not once was I accosted for being in that war.
20:47:24
From Robert Levering : The Movement and
the "Madman" can be streamed on Amazon Prime, iTunes, Kanopy, and PBS
Passport
20:47:27
From STEPHEN Morse : The weekend of
November 15, 1969, all GIs at Ft Ord were confined to the base, even though it
was more than 100 miles south of San Francisco.
20:51:00
From Doug Rawlings : Hugh Thompson (Whistleblower of My Lai)
20:51:00
From Michael Turek : I got out of the
Air Force in 1972 and although no one ever made negative remarks to me about
the War what I got and still get is a lack of interest in what I experienced.
20:51:05
From Chris Brandt : What's the title of Talbot's
film? I checked his name on Kanopy and
didn't get a hit.
20:51:58
From Steve Talbot : The name of my film
is The Movement and the "Madman".
20:52:35
From Chris Brandt : Thank you
20:52:42
From Nate Goldshlag to
Hosts and panelists : what is the name of this Kronos thing?
The Whistleblower of My Lai
20:52:43
From Sandy Polishuk : Whistleblower is
an amazing film in so many ways, his story, the music, the artiists' per
20:52:54
From Steve Talbot : Hugh Thompson, a
true hero.
20:53:03
From Mike Burton to
Hosts and panelists : This short film explains my role in and concern
about Laos https://vimeo.com/jimmyhuttonfilms
20:53:45
From Doug Bradley : I second Steve’s
emotion. Hugh Thompson was a brave man
20:54:54
From Jay Wilber : Though false and a
factor, "spitting" is not the
main reason people may get quiet once they launch a war. "Support the
Troops," is probably a broader "meme" deployed to silence
opposition and dissent.
20:55:34
From Sandy Polishuk : support the
troops/bring them home
20:56:16
From Michael Turek : MUSIC! was so
important to me and many GIs during the Vietnam War.
20:57:59
From ARNY Stieber : Another thing that
Bush2 crew started was “Thank You for Your Service”.
20:58:12
From Robert Levering : Chris Appy's
book, "American Reckoning" goes into great detail about how the
Pentagon and rightwingers like Ronald Reagan (who called the VN war "a
noble cause") have successfully rewrote the history of the war.
20:59:21
From Mike Burton to
Hosts and panelists : Remember we stopped drafting people in 1975, the
attitude toward deployment --and we have over 1800,00 deployed currently, has
changed
20:59:25
From James M Branum : We had the cover
of Barbara Dane's FTA record hanging on the wall at the Under the Hood cafe.
That's how I first heard about it.
21:00:38
From ARNY Stieber : Viet Nam is historically two words. It was made one word by the NYT because cable
transmission was priced per word.
21:00:56
From James M Branum : It is still that
way. The most idealistic recruits are more likely to resist than those who come
in already cynical.
21:00:59
From Steve Talbot : Yes, as Holly Near
says, the music was so vital to the movement, and let's remember it was John
Lennon and Yoko Ono who wrote and performed with friends in 1969, Give Peace a
Chance, which actually immediately became a Top Ten song and then was sung (led
by Pete Seeger) by some half a million people on Nov. 15, 1969 within earshot
of the White House.
21:02:13
From James M Branum : Another factor is
that servicemembers get moved around from unit to unit much more than used to
be common. This makes it harder to do any real organizing.
21:02:24
From Bill Galvin : It's a mostly recruited (coerced) army, not a
volunteer army.
21:02:36
From STEPHEN Morse : Enlistees signed up
for an extra year (3 years, rather than 2 years for draftees). In many (but not all ) cases, they got the
school they signed up for, but were not used in what they were trained for, but
rather as cannon fodder. That was part
of the betrayal of enlistees.
21:02:55
From Anita Holmes : These three films
have had a tremendous impact upon me. I've only watched them since hearing
about this webinar. Still had a lot of shame and grief to deal with... these
are helping immensely. I'm another
enlistee (WAC), lied to, eventually got my discharge on the basis of
conscientious objection.
21:02:56
From Michael Koncewicz : The antiwar GI
movement is certainly smaller than the Vietnam era, but the folks at About Face
(formerly Iraq Veterans Against the War) have done great work
21:03:17
From James M Branum : The circumstances
are different, but the struggle continues. I'm sure many you are aware of the
organizations doing work on behalf of war resisters today, but if not here are
some links worth sharing:
CourageToResist.org
AboutFaceVeterans.org
VeteransForPeace.org
NLGMLTF.org
GIRights.org
CenterOnConscience.org
21:03:22
From Mike Burton to
Hosts and panelists : Enlistment today are often motivated by the need
for money, not patriotism
21:03:24
From Robert Levering : Don't forget that
it was because of the draft that LBJ and Nixon were able to launch such a huge
war. Without the draft, it would have been really difficult for the US to have
conducted the war.
21:03:57
From Shawn Driscoll : I am honored to be
writing my dissertation on USSF and its history and impact.
21:04:00
From Doug Bradley : Mini-commercial here
- I co-authored We Gotta Get Out of This Place: The Soundtrack of the Vietnam
War which emphasizes the power of music to soldiers and veterans.
21:04:32
From Doug Bradley : Rolling Stone named
it the best music book of 2015!
21:05:46
From Steve Talbot : That's a great book,
Doug. With a perfect title. The Animals!
21:04:53
From James M Branum : Shawn - very
excited to hear about this! I hope you get it published too.
21:04:53
From Jay Wilber : What about opium,
heroin and other drug use? And, of course, the supply "facilitated"
by the CIA in supporting mountaintop bases in Laos, in particular.
21:06:06
From Shawn Driscoll : James…Thank you.
Working on that post-dissertation defense for sure.
21:06:10
From Terry Murray to
Hosts and panelists : Just got the news that Henry Kissinger died.
21:06:39
From Lee Trampleasure : I was involved
in the 'counter-recruitment' movement in the last 70s (after the Vietnam war
ended) and there were many Vietnam vets involved in that movement. They
realized the impact of the 'poverty draft' and recruiters full of lies to
encourage young people to enlist.
21:07:01
From Dana Moss : Resistance in the
military is always happening -- the question is to what extent! Thank you all
for this amazing panel, wow. What a privilege!!
21:07:03
From Terry Murray to
Hosts and panelists : I get alerts from the New York Times.
21:07:26
From Sandy Polishuk : thank you Jane.
another criminal gone!
21:07:46
From Michael Turek : The Vietnam Anti
War Movement grew out of the Civil Rights and the Anti-Nuclear "Ban the
Bomb" Movement. There was at least a decade of organizing that laid the
ground work for the Vietnam Anti War Movement. That disappeared in the 1980s.
21:08:58
From Nicole Fall to
Hosts and panelists : Thank you for a great panel ! Dorothy Fall (Bernard
Fall’s spouse)
21:09:02
From Shawn Driscoll : Thank you all. I
am so happy to have attended this. Much appreciation to all here.
21:09:03
From DeAnne Butterfield to
Hosts and panelists : can we save the chat?
21:09:26
From Wesley Brown to
Hosts and panelists : Henry Kissinger was a prime neocon architect of US
global imperialism and hegemony. Comments panel?
21:09:31
From STEPHEN Morse : Look for the work
of Combatants for Peace - started by former Palestinian fighters and Israeli
soldiers working together to peace and justice
21:09:46
From Lee Trampleasure : Thank you Jane.
21:09:46
From Bev Henkel to
Hosts and panelists : Thank you. Only on short time but wonderful. I was in Quang Ngai 1969-1971 with American
Service Committee. I saw first hand US
policy and how this negatively affected the civilians. Thank you
Bev Henkel
21:09:49
From Norman Stockwell : Thanks everyone
for a great, and very informative program. This is such an important history we
need to honor, remember, and replicate. Sincerely, Norman Stockwell and The Progressive magazine
in Madison, Wisconsin.
21:09:49
From Douglas Murray : Wonderful session.
Thank you all.
21:09:50
From Elizabeth Gaines to
Hosts and panelists : Thank you, Jane
21:10:02
From Sandy Polishuk : great discussion
plus thanking you for suggesting I see these 3 wonderful films
21:10:07
From Sherrie Rosenberg : THANK YOU, JANE
for everything and especially for stopping the conversation about Israel and
Palestine.
21:10:10
From Anita Holmes : Thank you so very
much.
21:10:22
From Julie Herrada : 🥰
21:10:32
From Doug Gerash : Thanks for your
longtime courage, Jane. And to all the
AntiWar warriors here.
21:10:39
From Elizabeth Gaines to
Hosts and panelists : Jews were the victims of Genocide!!!
21:10:40
From Jay Wilber : Viva Palestina! (Don't
be silly...)
21:10:41
From Kathy Stricklin to
Hosts and panelists : Thank you all. Peace.
21:10:44
From James M Branum : Thank you
everyone! Deeply inspiring. And Jane,
thank you for being you. You've been an inspiration to me for many, many years.
21:10:47
From Kate Harris : ☮️
21:10:53
From John Kim : Thank you for all your
work for peace!
21:10:54
From Dana Moss : BRAVO!!!!
21:11:34
From Doug Hostetter : Thanks, everyone,
this has been amazing
21:11:35
From Ann Froines : Wonderful session
from another antiwar old-timer,
21:11:38
From Norman Stockwell to
Hosts and panelists : Thanks Holly, Jane, and Dave - Great to see you
all!
21:11:39
From Dale Herman : Thank you so much.
21:11:39
From Sherrie Rosenberg : Thank you for
all of your dedicated work and I appreciate that you will send the chat.
21:11:56
From Donald Kollisch : Thank you,
Holly. Could not have made it through
without you. Especially “it could have been me”
21:12:09
From Marianne Schneller : Thank you
all. Peace
21:12:15
From Sean Douglas to
Hosts and panelists : Thanks for revealing the truth all. VietNam vet
21:12:32
From Steve Talbot : Jane -- Fog of War
is a brilliant film. I once interviewed Kissinger who almost walked out. I
lured him back by saying I’d just interviewed McNamara. And to my shock
Kissinger started to do a fake cry, saying "oh, boo hoo," mocking
McNamara for saying he regretted the war. It was a display I'll never forget.
Kissinger never apologized for his war crimes.
21:12:38
From Elizabeth Gaines to
Hosts and panelists : No equivalency between what happens to Jews and
any
GIs for Peace and the Antiwar Movement
“Thank You for Your Service (for Peace)”
Thursday, November 9, 6 p.m. EST
18:00:14 From Jean Pfaelzer to Hosts and panelists : Great work Paul and co! warmly Jeannie Pfaelzer
18:01:24 From James M Branum to Hosts and panelists : So nice to see you Kathy!
18:02:17 From cheryl h to Hosts and panelists : Greetings and thank you for hosting this webinar and all of your work towards creating the world we all deserve! I hope this will be recorded because I have a medical appointment so unfortunately cannot stay long.💖
18:02:44 From Terry Murray to Hosts and panelists : Around the *world*! I’m in Canada.
18:05:22 From Mike Ferner to Hosts and panelists : THANK YOU FOR ORGANIZING THIS AND PRESENTING! What a valuable service to history. Mike Ferner, VFP
18:10:05 From Andy Berman to Hosts and panelists : As a Vietnam-era GI war resister whose punishment was greatly mitigated by the support of the civilian antiwar movement, I wonder how can former military resisters and their peace movement supporters might use their experiences and moral authority to support Russian soldiers and Russian protesters who oppose their country's horrific aggression in Ukraine? These heroic Russians need to hear and see support from the US peace movement instead of its repetitions of Putin’s narrative that NATO started the war. – Andy Berman
18:20:03 From Andy Berman to Hosts and panelists : Susan Schnall, why won't Veterans for Peace demand from Putin what we demanded from Nixon: BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW.? The United Nations has demanded by a vote 141-7 for "immediate and unconditional withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine". Yet VFP often repeats Putin's narrative the NATO started the war and refuses to support what the UN demands.
18:34:59 From Mike Ferner to Hosts and panelists : John Kent-- thank you for your story. I hope you'll join VFP. Mike Ferner, HM3, USS Hancock
18:40:53 From Mike Ferner to Hosts and panelists : Kathy, thank you! The Pacific Counseling Service in Oakland was very helpful when I was getting out as a C.O. Bless all those counselors, ACLU, NLG. Mike Ferner USS Hancock CVA-19 out of Alameda. And I DO remember "Turning the Regs Around." I used the regs to drive the brass crazy on the carrier while waiting for them to rule on my C.O. application.
18:42:43 From Mike Ferner to Hosts and panelists : JJ-- Thank you so much. We were in a brief zoom call when Tarak Kauff wanted you to help with "Peace in Our Times" and "Peace and Planet News." I'd appreciate being able to correspond with you. Mike Ferner, VFP
18:45:54 From Steve Morse : I want to provide the link to what I believe is the largest collection of the GI underground press from the Viet Nam War, which was compiled by James Lewes - https://www.jstor.org/site/reveal-digital/independent-voices/gi-press/?searchkey=1699570735251
18:48:17 From Gary Ghirardi : Could Veterans for Peace chapters be interested in assisting the following project?
Elective Military Corps Programs in Schools Should Not Be Forced Upon Minority and Low-income Students JROTC is a program taught in 3500 high schools across the country by retired military officers. The Pentagon has claimed that JROTC is supposed to be an elective. TheNew York Times found that thousands of public school students were being funneled into JROTC classes without ever having chosen them.
The TECMITS project seeks to identify schools where youth are placed involuntarily. Elizabeth Frank from the support team on this task force's outreach is willing to followup if school districts are identified taking part in this practice of violating student rights and parental consent.
#JROTC #RespectParentalChoice
https://endcom.org/
18:49:39 From Dana Moss : To echo Paul's comment - thank you John Kent for your incredible work on making this movement visible on Wikipedia!!!
18:51:07 From Nancy Wechsler : Paul was on the board of RESIST when I worked there.
18:51:20 From Mike Ferner to Hosts and panelists : Gary, plz send me an email on this so I don't lose it here. mike@veteransforpeace.org here in Toledo we worked for a couple years to get the f...g recruiters out of the public schools.
18:52:52 From John McAuliff to Fred Gardner and all panelists : Do you want me to recognize you to speak for a couple of minutes?
18:53:03 From Daniel Dlugose : During my time in the Pacific I lived on Guam in 1997 and knew that every night the B-52s would be flying round trop to flatten Hanoi. When I got to my Hospital ship- Sanctuary AH-17, one of the patients was a toddler whose leg was burnt and charred with Napalm. Later I had no respect for any military authorities, of other Navy people from Warrant officers and up.
18:54:55 From Matthew Rinaldi : There was no "grass" smoked at the coffe houses/
18:58:48 From Mike Ferner : On the USS Hancock, the Marines were guarding the main reduction gear after someone on the Ranger dropped in some bolts and kept it in drydock in Alameda for months. On my first cruise out of the base, a friend took me on a tour. On the hangar deck I noticed Marines standing at rest between the fighter jets with M-1s. I asked my friend "who are they guarding the planes from?" He responded "from us." I loved it!
18:59:09 From Andy Berman to Hosts and panelists : Paul, I was in Basic Training in Fort Lewis when the vets in Washington DC threw their medals over the fence to Congress. The mood of the new recruits in Basic Training was exceedingly sober!
19:01:18 From Mike Ferner : Pacific Counseling Service helped me get out as a C.O. and the ACLU represented me on the 1st amendment case when I got busted for circulating a petition to Ron Dellums for a Congressional investigation to keep the USS Hancock from going back to Viet Nam. Bless them all!
19:01:25 From Andy Berman to Hosts and panelists : Kudos to LMDC Lawyers Military Defense Committe which based in Germany did tremendous work in support of dissident GIs.
19:01:51 From Lynn Estomin : To see writing/poetry by Iraq/Afghanistan vets, as well as some Vietnam era vets, check out www.warriorwriters.org
19:01:54 From Michael Turek : How can we get our stories out into the mainstream? I've found most people who were not in the military during the Vietnam War or active against the war are not interested. A couple of years ago I offered a lecture in our local Osher Life Long Learning (OLLI) program on the GI Peace Movement, four people showed up.
19:02:54 From Elise Lemire : I just chaired a panel with the members of VVAW who organized Operation POW. Two audience members claimed that they had been called baby killers. This and the spitting never happened, right? So how do you handle those claims when people make them?
19:03:47 From Jack Malinowski to Hosts and panelists : What a great panel of speakers! Thank you.
19:04:04 From Mike Ferner : Before I got out, I was always happy to see demonstrations. On Armed Farces Day 1972, at the Great Lakes Naval Hospital, there was a great demo around the base. I was living in base housing with my wife and got busted for hanging a hospital sheet with a big peace sign painted on it, on the fence facing the street. That was the first thing I did as a resister and it felt great!
19:05:44 From Lee Lee to Hosts and panelists : What are search terms for Wikipedia that you are referencing or please post links
19:05:48 From Robert Levering : Vets led the 1969 Mobe march on Washington as David Cortright describes in "The Movement and the 'Madman'" documentary film.
19:06:15 From John Catalinotto to Hosts and panelists : I organized with the American Servicemen’s Union — in 1968 and definitely by the time of the big protests in the fall of 1969, we were overwhelmed with invitations from all sorts of peace movement teach-ins. It was never really a problem.
19:06:53 From Katherine Sogolow to Hosts and panelists : Thanks all for the various links!
19:08:17 From John Catalinotto : In the American Servicemen’s Union by 1968 and 1969 we were overwhelmed with invitations for teach ins, etc. There was no hostility from the movement toward GIs.
19:09:42 From Andy Berman to Hosts and panelists : Watch for upcoming new book about the progressive lawyers at US bases in Asia, Europe and the US supporting GI resistance "They Also Served"
19:10:24 From Josh Gould to Hosts and panelists : Let’s not forget Dave Cline, the Ft. Hood 43 and so many more.
19:10:50 From Mike Ferner : RIGHT ON, SUSAN SCHNALL!!! Stop the madness and the madmen!
19:11:14 From Andy Berman to Hosts and panelists : Susan, why won't you demand an end to RUSSIAN WEAPONS to Ukraine?
19:13:17 From Mike Tork : Good panel and discussion. As the saying goes, I didn’t serve I was used.
19:13:37 From Andy Berman to Hosts and panelists : Demanding that Ukraine not get the means to defend their country from the invasion is Putin's greatest desire.
19:14:41 From Lee Lee to Hosts and panelists : My chat glitched and was cleared. Please repost info re Wikipedia
19:14:43 From Mike Ferner : Tork! good to see ya! It's 4:20 my time. How about you?
19:15:00 From James M Branum : I hope the panelists can briefly mention the role that the GI resistance movement of the Vietnam era inspired and fueled anti-war pro-servicemember activism in the more recent era, particularly with the coffeehouses that were active around 2008-2012 or so. --- the big part of that was the Sir No Sir documentary, which inspired many of us.
I'll also mention that at Fort Hood we even had a undergroud newspaper for awhile (also inspired by what happened in the 1960's and 1970's).
Here are links to the issues that we put out:
https://ia802708.us.archive.org/9/items/zinelibrary-torrent/not-so-great-place-issue1.pdf
https://ia902708.us.archive.org/9/items/zinelibrary-torrent/not-so-great-place-issue2-final.pdf
19:15:25 From Michael Turek : I don't know if its still there but "Sir. No Sir" was available on Netflix.
19:15:36 From Nancy Wechsler : your local library might have them on Kanopy
19:15:52 From Ken Mayers to Hosts and panelists : Great seeing Susan, of course, as well as input from Ferner and Tork.
19:16:53 From Ken Mayers : Great seeing Susan, of course, as well as the Mikes — Tork and Ferner.
19:16:55 From James M Branum : @John Catalinotto, very excited to hear from someone who was involved with the American Servicemen's Union. I've been inspired by the story of its founding ever since reading the book "Up against the brass" which tells about Andy Stapp at Fort Sill, Oklahoma.
19:17:26 From Mike Ferner : Absolutely right, JJ! I learned early that the louder and more public I was, the better.
19:18:30 From Andy Berman to Hosts and panelists : JJ is right on! Using the outside media particularly towards the latter part of the war gave the antiwar movement significant power.
19:18:41 From R Griffin to Hosts and panelists : I have to go, and hate to just drop this here without staying for a discussion, but I want to say I cannot unite with a program to stop arms supplies to Ukraine.
19:18:52 From Josh Gould : Sir No Sir is on Netflix. In all the comments about the development of the G.I. Movement lets not forget how heroic the Vietnamese fought the war. The tet offensive had a tremendous impact.
19:19:13 From Ernest Muhly : Links to you Blog page and other resources?
19:20:29 From James M Branum : Here's some links about the more recent coffeehouses...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Hood_Caf%C3%A9
19:20:32 From Mike Ferner : The madmen knew what they were doing having an all-volunteer military!
19:20:50 From Elise Lemire : So true, Susan!!!
19:21:27 From John Catalinotto : To check out all the GI publications, you can see the University of Wisconsin collection: https://content.wisconsinhistory.org/digital/collection/p15932coll8
19:21:48 From Mike Ferner : Damn right, Susan!!
19:21:52 From James M Branum : Here's an article about Coffee Strong, which was near Fort Lewis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_Strong
19:23:08 From Michael Turek : Good point. I enlisted in the Air Force while still in high school in 1968 and became involved in the GI Movement in 1970.
19:23:09 From Rick Jahnkow to Hosts and panelists : Better than a draft would be requiring tax forms to show how much the payer is taxed to pay for U.S. wars. Also, I agree with Kathy's point about enlistees being more likely to speak out.
19:23:48 From James M Branum : There were also coffeehouses in the Iraq war era at Norfolk, VA and at Fort Drum, NY, but don't know as much about them.
19:24:01 From Camillo Mac Bica to Hosts and panelists : https://truthout.org/articles/rich-mans-war-and-a-poor-mans-fight/
19:24:05 From Andy Berman to Hosts and panelists : The greatest war crimes going on today are being done by the indicted war criminal Vladimir Putin, who the International Crimiinal Court has cited. Seeing only the US as the only source of war crimes is a weakness of the US peace community.
19:24:39 From John Catalinotto : During the Iraq occupation, someone who organized legal defense for GIs during Vietnam helped set up the Fort Drum coffee house. He died suddenly as all this was happening (I can’t remember his name)
19:26:22 From Lee Lee to Hosts and panelists : Susan exactly! As a high school teacher in poverty high school I can tell you that ROTC and recruiters were invited to our assemblies and other activities whereas they weren’t allowed at the white wealthy districts in our county. The wealthier parents would not allow it. Many of my students enlisted absolutely get jobs, skills, and an education.
19:27:26 From Mike Ferner : The empire's madmen (and admen) have so perverted young peoples' genuine interest in serving the greater good and being part of "something bigger than myself." Those are two admirable sentiments and the madmen are good at perverting it into recruiting. But that sense of good spirit could be satisfied with the old CCC-- Civilian Conservation Corps
19:28:18 From Andy Berman to Hosts and panelists : Thank you John for your remarks on Ukraine.
19:28:25 From James M Branum : Another element of the ending of the coffeehouses was the internet. Positively the internet provided another source of organizing (i.e. most of the newspapers we distributed at Fort Hood were actually read online, rather than in print form). Negatively, a lot of the troops didn't feel the need for an outlet to socialize off-post because the internet provided those social outlets.
19:28:54 From Dana Moss : Resisters from Russia should be given asylum in other countries. This is vital for peace!!!
19:29:24 From Mike Ferner : https://www.veteransforpeace.org/
19:29:27 From James M Branum : FYI - CCW and some other groups are working together to put together a training in December about ways to support Russian and Ukrainian war resisters, particularly those who are seeking asylum in the US. One of our speakers will be an attorney who has been successful in some of these asylum cases.
19:30:41 From Dana Moss : Thank you all for your incredible testimonies and continued work for peace, both in action and in spirit. See you on the 29th of Nov!
19:30:43 From Mike Ferner : THANK YOU!!!
19:30:49 From Linda Lamont : Thank you for an interesting discussion.
19:30:50 From Andy Berman to Hosts and panelists : No Susan, VFP's position on Ukraine is basically aligned with Russia....repeated the NATO started the war lie and demanding an end to weapons to Ukraine's defense but silence on Russian weapons for occupation.
19:30:57 From James M Branum : Thank you all so much for making this event happen. Very inspiring and hopeful to hear from those who have done so much for the sake of peace and liberating the troops.
19:31:01 From Michael Turek : Thank you and PEACE
19:31:02 From Mike Tork : Thanks
19:31:07 From Harold Appel to Hosts and panelists : Thanks all.
19:31:21 From Kamala Platt : Thank you all so much!
19:31:23 From Gloria Switzer : Thank you!! I'll tune in 11-29.
19:31:25 From rob boudewijn : Thanks
19:31:28 From Josh Gould to Hosts and panelists : Good to see you Paul. Josh Gould
19:31:42 From James M Branum : Peace, Shalom and Salaam!
19:31:49 From Lee Lee to Hosts and panelists : Incredible resources. Thank you peace